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probate... - Categorized in: Report a ProblemReport a Problem

5 posts. Started 19 Jul 2015 by cp. Latest reply 21 Jul 2015 by cp. RSS 2.0 feed for this topic RSS
1. cp (cp)
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Joined: Mon, 19 Mar 2012
5 blog comments, 9 forum posts
Posted: Sun, 19 Jul 2015 Permalink

Hi Louis

Very impressed with the new version so far! Worth the wait!

One little wrinkle (rather than bug) is in how probate is being handled (you may think I've got a fixation with probate as it was me who suggested in March 2012 that it usually came after death :) ). Anyway this is a typical message I'm getting within the everything report:

"Burial: Tue 3 Jan 1933, 5d after death, married 37y (Alice Eleanor) in Laleham, Middlesex. Address: All Saints, Laleham, Middlesex. Age: 60y
Probate: Mon 29 Jan 1934, 1y after death **Occurs too long after death., married 38y (Alice Eleanor) in London (Principal Registry)"

With "**Occurs too long after death." written in red.

Now, certainly in the UK, probate can occur many many years after death (often only when a partner dies as a] nobody bothered to probate or b] more estate has come to light in dealing with the second estate). And you can get second or even third probates due to similar scenarios. I can obviously give you actual examples, but hopefully this won't be necessary :)

Hopefully, this is an easy one to fix that won't need another blog posts like recent ones that I really studied and still walked away with brain ache! Kudos to you for mastering it!

Cheers, Colin

2. Louis Kessler (lkessler)
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Joined: Sun, 9 Mar 2003
213 blog comments, 224 forum posts
Posted: Mon, 20 Jul 2015 Permalink

Colin,

To be honest, I never did specifically check the Probate tag before the 1.1 release. I did group it with the other after-death events and by default it gives that message for any after-death events a year or longer after the death.

How long would you say is a reasonable period after death for a probate before it might be considered too long?

I'm a bit squeamish about some of these types of messages right now, because I want to provide as much information as possible about what is wrong, while minimizing the number of false-positives (messages given but the data is correct). It is a hard balance to obtain. I'm going to be looking in more detail at the consistency checks in the future, but I've moved it to a lower priority as I attempt to get the editing going.

Also, Behold's report should not say "married 38y (Alice Eleanor) on any after death information, so this I'll fix.

Louis

3. cp (cp)
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Joined: Mon, 19 Mar 2012
5 blog comments, 9 forum posts
Posted: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 Permalink

Hi Louis - thanks for your thoughts.

Most probates are certainly within a year, but...

Probate is one of those things (especially if there is a second one) that can occur many many years after the event. Doing a straw poll in just my 'to hand' records, I've got 1) died 1854, probate 1865; 2) died 1873, probate 1888; 3) died 1870, 1st probate 1870, 2nd probate 1879; 4) died 1847, 1st probate 1873, 2nd probate 1890 (most extreme example (at 43 years gap!) I've found to date but I'm sure not the worst one ever).

It's like considering how young/old is too young or old for a marriage? Most people it's 18-35, second/third/fourth marriages could be extended well into old age, historically could be as young as 13.

I don't mind any flagging (so for probate the trigger could be two years methinks), but as the everything report is for printing I would prefer not to have anything embedded in the main flow. So perhaps a section for consistency queries just as there is a section for gedcom errors/warnings?

Thinking about it, you need one flow for when you import a gedcom (ie the aforementioned consistency section) and another flow for data entry in later 'editing' versions (maybe a floating 'potential error' box that triggers on potentially dodgy data entry as Family Historian does).

And as to your second point, I hadn't even noticed 'married' after death! Good spot! Yep, married x years up to death, widowed x years after death.

Cheers, Colin

4. Louis Kessler (lkessler)
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Joined: Sun, 9 Mar 2003
213 blog comments, 224 forum posts
Posted: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 Permalink

Colin,

The idea is that these messages are designed to point out "likely" problems. Things you'll want to check. They should not be wrong more than 5% of the time or they are too loose. If fewer than 5% of probates occurs after a year, then it is set at about the right level, because you may have a few of them that are okay, but some may still have the date incorrectly added and should be within a year and need correction.

It is like picking what age is too old so you can catch errors. 105 might be good, but you'll get a message if your grandfather lived to 107. So then if you set it to 110, you'll miss your uncle who died at 108 when he should have died at 58. Some of the messages like the old age, you can set the age. But I don't have that for Probate.

For now, you can't get rid of the messages (other than turning that message off completely on the Organize Report page). But once editing is added, I will allow each message to individually be turned off, i.e. you will verify that what the message says, in this case, is not a problem. That individual selection will be stored with the file so that it won't pop up there again the next time you load the file.

... and after death, it should not say widowed either. The spouse of the person is widowed. The person him/herself is dead.

Louis

5. cp (cp)
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Joined: Mon, 19 Mar 2012
5 blog comments, 9 forum posts
Posted: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 Permalink

Yep, that all sounds good Louis!

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